boehner. >> and by the way, john boehner is talking about having to get the majority of a majority on tax issues. he's not going to get a majority of majority on debt raising. >> much harder on the debt ceiling than taxes. >> that's what i'm saying. i refuse to vote to raise a debt ceiling when they were trying to raise it to $5 trillion. it's something you don't do unless you get a lot of cuts on the other side. >> and it's not a game. because if you don't raise it, we saw what happened last time, you can get your debt downgraded and has real economic consequenc consequences. and that's why when people think about the fiscal cliff, we all assume that sane minds will prevail and they'll come up with some deal. there's no guarantee that sane minds will prevail. and recent history would suggest that sanity almost never prevails in washington. so you can assume it's going to be more difficult than we think. you can assume that the bush tax cuts might all go away for a short period of time. and you cannot assume they just raise the debt limit. you cannot make that assumption. >> are the p